Winning Strategies for Authors: Engaging Readers and Acquiring Reviews with Jonathan Green

Jennie Wright [00:00:04]:

Hi. This is the Acquire podcast from the Odd Phonic Podcast Network, and I’m Jenny Wright. This is the podcast that delves deep into the world of list building and online events, and it’s designed to empower entrepreneurs and marketers with the knowledge and strategies to master these essential business growth tactics. We’re gonna have some fun today, and we have an incredible guest. This is Jonathan Green with us today, And he is the master of prolific writing and effective book promotion. And so, Jonathan, I’m really glad you’re here. Thanks so much.

 

Jonathan Green [00:00:34]:

Oh, thank you so much for having me. I’m excited to finally connect and make this happen.

 

Jennie Wright [00:00:38]:

Absolutely. We had a couple, tech issues trying to get this recording done, but here we are. It’s good. So you have a fascinating journey to share, and it’s one that’s gonna leave, I think, our listeners pretty inspired and share some really great ways that people can do launches with their books. And you are the best selling author of Chat GPT Profits and Serve No Master, as well as an impressive catalog of over 300 other books, Some ghostwritten, some written by yourself, and this is this is amazing. You are no stranger to the world of writing, book promotion, and all that great stuff. So This is where it gets really exciting. You’re also, with your celebrity ghost writer status and artificial intelligence expertise.

 

Jennie Wright [00:01:19]:

So that is Marrying 2 things together that’s gonna make sure you have a very long and prolific future. What’s more intriguing to me is that you’re currently living the dream on a tropical island in the South Pacific. And your journey to success wasn’t always a smooth ride, but you have taken a challenging situation being fired during a blizzard and you’ve turned it into a thriving business. So in this episode, we are going to unravel the mystery behind promoting your book effectively. We’re not gonna talk about the usual tactics. You can get that on Google. We really wanna look into these lesser known hidden gems that can make your book soar. So we’re gonna discover how to do this and create those coveted book reviews, get your masterpiece into the hands of eager readers.

 

Jennie Wright [00:02:01]:

Thank you. This is gonna be a lot of fun. So let’s dive in real quick. Can you share some of these unconventional methods that people use to effectively promote their books, the ones that people just don’t know about.

 

Jonathan Green [00:02:14]:

Yeah. There’s a couple of strategies that are lesser known. There’s a lot of really interesting things happening on TikTok. I’ve seen some authors, and that’s something I play around with where you can build an audience and you just talk about your writing journey because people are very interested in that, and it’s very cool new way to do it. Not a lot of author especially because a lot of authors, like, were a little bit older. We’re like, oh, TikToks kids, that’s a huge place to do it. That’s one of the new strategies that’s very interesting. Some people have worked with have done very well, and it’s a little little lesser known.

 

Jonathan Green [00:02:44]:

It’s a new one. The other Really critical part is to begin your process by saying, my job is to sell books. Like, it’s if you say you’re an author, You think I write books? It’s that’s easy. Once you start and it’s crazy to say that because I know writing a book is really hard. That shows how much sell harder selling books is. So the most important Strategy that I’ve developed is alliances. I’m a huge fan of cooperative ventures with other authors, and I try all sorts of different types of them. If you’ve ever seen, like, a virtual summit or a conference where a bunch of authors are speaking, I try to create That type of environment.

 

Jonathan Green [00:03:22]:

So I had this revelation a few years ago because I was I used to think every author is my enemy. I said if someone’s reading their book, that means that person’s not reading my book. So I was always very competitive, and I had this revelation one day. I said, you know, I don’t know anyone who has only 1 business book. Like, if you’ve ever been to someone’s house and they have those dating books, they have, like, 50. They never have just 1. They never go, I read this book and it worked, and I’m done. Never see Whatever they’re into.

 

Jonathan Green [00:03:49]:

And I certainly don’t I’m not loyal. I read a lot of science fiction. I’m not loyal to 1 author, and then I don’t read other authors in the same space. And that’s you see that where you have those books that are, a bunch of short story collections, where they’re like, oh, they’re doing something cooperative. So that type of Yeah. And I started thinking about what if I could get the kind of result of virtual summit with less work. And so I started doing these group Book giveaways. I would just like, I’ve cold emailed probably every author on Amazon by now.

 

Jonathan Green [00:04:18]:

I probably emailed 20,000, 30,000 people, 1 by 1 saying, hey. I saw your book in the charts. Would be interested into a cooperative venture. And what what you do is I’ll Share your book with my audience, and you share my book with your audience. And we usually try to get, like, 10 authors, like a smaller so it’s not crazy number. And so that way everyone is kind of on the same page when show a screen, and I run it 2 different ways. I think the best version is where each author and that this comes from learning. I make the tool page and the download page for that person so that everyone’s page looks the same.

 

Jonathan Green [00:04:53]:

Because originally, the original version was, oh, everyone makes their own opt in page or their own landing page to give away their book, and then the person who’s better at that will get more, and it’s not fair. Fair is really important. Yeah. Because then the marketers win. So I said, oh, I have to so it’s more work for me, but I have to design every page, and I just make them look like the Amazon page. So just a picture of your book, An email address button and then a page, and then each person gets a spreadsheet with all the email addresses of people that took their books. So it’s a 100% of the up and up. Mhmm.

 

Jonathan Green [00:05:20]:

We don’t do, Oh, you opt in and you get all the books. No. You have to choose which books you want. And this is very effective because It turns it’s like a the it’s turning lead into gold. What happens is my there are people on my 10% of people who read my email They are thinking about unsubscribing. At any given time, there’s always we’re all that way. Right? Yeah. We all have some email we got today that we’re, like, Thinking about, should I just unsubscribe? Am I bored of this? Should I cancel the subscription? Right? I don’t really watch that much Netflix.

 

Jonathan Green [00:05:53]:

Every month we have this conversation with my family. Should we just cancel it? It’s the same thing. So that 10% of people go, oh, bunch of free books. That’s interesting. And what happens is they will come, And they will jump to someone else’s. So someone might leave me and jump to your book, read your book, and go, you know what? I am in love with Jenny. So what happens is a bad fan of mine, right, a bottom tier fan that someone is barely interested, right, becomes a super fan of someone else.

 

Jennie Wright [00:06:20]:

Mhmm.

 

Jonathan Green [00:06:21]:

So I and then your 10% that are bored of you will jump to me. So I don’t get fans of equal value. I get fans of significantly higher value people that are customers, people that are ready to spend money, people that become super engaged, and they’re excited again. And The reason book of good ways are so powerful is that they attract the exact right person because every single person has bought a book. Right. So they came in. Even though they’re getting my book for free, they’re not the same as normal freebie seekers, which people in marketing talk about. Someone comes to your website, downloads a free gift, They often are very inactive where they’ll give you a fake email address, get their free gift, and disappear.

 

Jonathan Green [00:07:00]:

Absolutely. People that don’t buy stuff online. The beauty of People that come in this ways, they might not have bought my book, but they bought a book. And then they came to buy a book, so they’re all buyers. They’re people that buy stuff online. Right. Not everyone will spend money online. And so they’re in this 2nd category.

 

Jonathan Green [00:07:16]:

So they’re worth more. They’re more engaged. And people that like Books? Not everyone likes books. I had this I remember in high school, someone once told me, I was I haven’t read an a book in over 2 years. I’ve only read 1 magazine article in the last 2 years, and he was so proud. That’s not my ideal customer. My ideal customer and there’s a big correlation between reading and income and reading and spending power. So I want people that see books as valuable and actually want a free because there’s a lot of people.

 

Jonathan Green [00:07:40]:

You could have a bunch of free books outside, and they go, I don’t want it. They don’t see they don’t read, so they don’t care. So it attracts the right people. It repels the wrong people, and it’s a really powerful way to Run-in and the thing about these events is that every single author always gets more email addresses than they started with.

 

Jennie Wright [00:08:00]:

So nobody

 

Jonathan Green [00:08:02]:

As a net negative. Usually, they get double. So if someone sends in a 100 people, they’ll get 200 or more, and they get, like, this really huge benefit because Most no. Nobody takes all the books. Say that right now. Most people take 3 or 4. So people actually are very deliberate because you have to Go to the page, add Gmail address, and go back. So it actually does it’s a better value as well because they’ve picked you.

 

Jonathan Green [00:08:27]:

Mhmm. So they looked at a group of books on the shelf. Oh, here’s the top 10 best sells. I’ll take these 3. And it creates this really cool effect for you, and it allows you to Kind of rejuvenate your list, rejuvenate your audience, get fresh boy people in. So this is the most effective strategy that I’ve used. It is a lot of work because a lot of A lot of authors are bad marketers, or they don’t have they don’t actually have control of their book, and so you do get some hard pushbacks. I I do get the Not very often.

 

Jonathan Green [00:08:55]:

It’s usually because I don’t use software to manage this. I actually have a spreadsheet, and sometimes I’ll email someone on accent, and they’ll send back a mean email. Like, hey. I told you 6 6 months ago, I never wanna participate in one of your events. I’m like, oh, sorry. Because sometimes people would say, oh, I wanna do the next one. And it’s That’s the one negative of it is that you do have to message, but most people either don’t respond, which is fine, or they’re very positive.

 

Jennie Wright [00:09:19]:

Mhmm.

 

Jonathan Green [00:09:19]:

Very rarely get the negative response. I don’t mind a non response. So it’s people who participate always get a massive benefit. We’ve never had someone have a negative experience, Even close.

 

Jennie Wright [00:09:29]:

Yep.

 

Jonathan Green [00:09:30]:

And that’s what’s really important. So for me, it has to be a win for the author and the reader. So the readers get good books for free because I have to, You know, I screen them out. We look for, does a book have a certain number of reviews? Does this sometimes a book will have lower reviews, but the author has a past book with a lot of reviews. So we look at that. So it’s never a book. Oh, this is a brand new book with no reviews. Here you go.

 

Jonathan Green [00:09:51]:

Mhmm. You there’s a level of quality control that’s important. This works really in other spaces, even more in non and more even more in the fiction space. So this I really kind of revolutionized this in nonfiction, but it’s so much more powerful In romance or in science fiction.

 

Jennie Wright [00:10:06]:

Sure.

 

Jonathan Green [00:10:08]:

And, again, you have, like, a lot of authors in that space. There’s 2 types of authors. The authors who really get it or the authors have No idea. So it can go either way, but when you get authors that kinda get it, they’re like, of course. There’s no hesitation. They have a lot of strategy around it. And this This is the biggest strategy that I use for boosting a book. Mhmm.

 

Jonathan Green [00:10:28]:

And it’s a strategy I’ll even use for a client. They’ll set up an event in their space.

 

Jennie Wright [00:10:32]:

Mhmm.

 

Jonathan Green [00:10:32]:

Like, oh, they have book in the space, and we’ll just message a ton of people. It’s very easy to find contact information for authors. Even People don’t realize that most websites, the contact form just goes to the author’s email address. So we fill in contact forms all the time. It’s usually a pretty good response rate. So, if I can’t find their email address, I’ll do that. I don’t message people on social media. I don’t that’s never worked for me.

 

Jonathan Green [00:10:56]:

But just the Cold email strategy has been very effective for me.

 

Jennie Wright [00:11:01]:

Okay.

 

Jonathan Green [00:11:01]:

Messaging every hour.

 

Jennie Wright [00:11:03]:

This is a really cool well, you know that I love online events. Like, I’ve run over 350 online summits. I do a lot of book promotions as well. I’ve never done an event like you’re describing, but it is not so far out of What I have done that it’s not possible. Like, this is something that I can as you’re talking about it, it’s a totally doable strategy. I can see the benefits of doing something like this. Collaboration is always better than trying to go it alone if you ask me, unless you have The social media following and the email list just so that you can do it alone, but I I absolutely love I always say that I’m not in competition. I’m in collaboration, And I’d rather work in collaboration with people in the exact same field as me than in competition with them because you can get a lot farther when you work with people, obviously.

 

Jennie Wright [00:11:52]:

So if I can sort of summarize a little bit about this Event style. Right? So it’s obviously an online event. You obviously have to have a promotional period. You obviously have to have a funnel. Right? Enter your name and email. You get access to 10 different authors. There are 10 different books. You go to the author’s page that you’ve created.

 

Jennie Wright [00:12:11]:

You enter your name and email, and the author then sends you a digital Copy of the book, or do they get a physical copy? What do they get?

 

Jonathan Green [00:12:18]:

Yeah. So they go to a landing page that has the book covers of all the books and a timer. So we run an event for 2 days, so it’s a 40 hour window. And they click on whichever book cover they’re interested. It has the description from Amazon, which we’ve formatted, and they just enter their email address, And it takes them straight to the download page for the book.

 

Jennie Wright [00:12:35]:

Nice.

 

Jonathan Green [00:12:36]:

When that happens, it then immediately adds to we cussed each Landing page is customized, so it goes to an ex like a Google Sheet for that author. Mhmm. So the authors can actually see the email addresses. Some authors wanna be really proactive, and they could see them coming in in real time. And they can add them to their auto responders real time and do all of those things. So they have instant access to The people that have chosen their book, and it allows people to select. It’s a short window of time, so it’s not a huge ask, And it is a way to get people really excited about your book again because they go, oh my gosh. I’ve never heard of this author, but if The author I like recommends them, then that’s gonna be interesting.

 

Jennie Wright [00:13:15]:

Okay. Alright. So you do it for 48 hours, which is really, really cool. I like the time limit. And, yeah, you’re gonna see some people downloading your stuff. It’s similar to what we do with giveaways and bundles, but, obviously, different in terms of the authorship side of it, which I really like. When we you and I first spoke a couple weeks ago, sort of form you know, formulating what this episode would be like, We got into a really cool conversation about getting reviews. And at the time, I was still planning an online book launch for a client of mine, and we got into this, like, really interesting conversation about it.

 

Jennie Wright [00:13:49]:

Can you share a little bit more about the strategy you were telling me at the time that, Amazon only shows, like, the first 8 reviews, so it’s important to have those first 8 reviews and then consistently update it with good reviews and things. How do you get people to give good reviews? I find that’s really hard. And how do you continuously, engage people to give reviews over time versus just, like, during that quote, unquote launch period.

 

Jonathan Green [00:14:15]:

Sure. So most books on Amazon have 0 reviews. Yeah. Like, 90% of above 0. And this is a hard lesson. Every author’s company says the same thing. Oh, I’ve got a ton of friends and family. My mom, I’ll never forget this.

 

Jonathan Green [00:14:31]:

She offered me $20, so I have to read my book. My book hit number 2 on all of Amazon.

 

Jennie Wright [00:14:36]:

Oh my god.

 

Jonathan Green [00:14:36]:

Yeah. So it’s And everyone does that. I all the time. As part of my job, people are, like, ask me to read their book all the time, and it’s I’m always dread I always think the same thing. I always think, oh, I should just offer him $20 and not read it. I think about that all the time because I I feel the same way. So You’re asking someone for to do something huge because you’re asking for their time, and that’s a big, big ask. So the first thing is you have to have a strategy.

 

Jonathan Green [00:15:03]:

Most people just don’t. They think it’s gonna be easy. It’s not. It’s very hard because nobody wants to be the first anything. So you have to create a lot of momentum. So The best kind of you have to have 2 different strategies. The first one is, yeah, getting to the first 8. That’s the magic number.

 

Jonathan Green [00:15:19]:

After 8, it doesn’t matter because Amazon only shows 8 On any listing page, they will never show 9 reviews on a book listing page, so you don’t have to worry about it. What happens is if people see your book and they only see 3 reviews on the page, They’ll notice. They might not know why, but they go something’s missing, and they’ll have that feeling that something is missing. So There’s a bunch of things that you wanna do as part of the process. So I’ll just walk through. The first thing is you wanna make it easy for people to leave reviews. So the first thing is you can actually create a link that’s some Some people call it a superlink that takes people straight to the review page for your book because it’s tricky. You actually have to go to a page.

 

Jonathan Green [00:15:53]:

If you go on Amazon and you go to find the book, then you have to Go to the review section. You have to click a little box. It says leave a review. Yep. And it’s actually really complicated. So creating a a short link, that’s the first step. The 2nd step in the process and then I make a redirect. So if it’s like my website .comforward/review or forward slash The name of the first word of the book review, like Orbit review or 20 k review for one of my books, that makes it easy.

 

Jonathan Green [00:16:18]:

The second thing that I did That I didn’t know would be such a success is I wrote a blog post about how to leave a video review on Amazon so that People that’s why my book has a bunch of video reviews on it, and I would just send people an email with a link to that post. That blog post gets a ton of SEO traffic. So people in general wanna write or Leave a video of you on Amazon. My blog post is still the go to. I had no idea that would happen, but it was like, just make it easy for people. Explain the process. So That’s the first thing you have to do. Make it as easy as possible.

 

Jonathan Green [00:16:51]:

The second thing is at the end of your book, you wanna be strategic. People forget or they use the end pages in poor ways a lot. Like, they annoy people, with, like, a barrage of offers. Like, here’s Remember sometimes books, like, especially science fiction books will have, like, a 1 page description of, like, 10 different books by 10 different authors at the end. And I’m like, what is happening here? Yeah. Like being at the back of a magazine in the eighties. I don’t know what’s happening, but I don’t it, like, makes you jump off the book. I don’t read the end of it.

 

Jonathan Green [00:17:20]:

There’s 2 things that will make a Huge difference in your results. The first is have to have a page that says, hey. Did you find a typo? And you want I send people to my website site as a little form they can fill and tell me which book it is and tell me about the typo, and then I get an email, and then I fix the book. And I say something along the lines of, hey. If you found a type of this book, please tell me right here so I can fix the book, and everyone reads the book after you won’t have to face that type, or you can make this book better. This is specifically to stop the grammar reviewer cyber, because a bad grammar review can actually kill your book. A bad grammar review is more is so bad That it will your book will go from a 1,000 sales a day to 0 if one of those pops up. They’re so and the people that do it are monsters.

 

Jonathan Green [00:18:05]:

They actually actively do wanna kill your book, And it will be I’ve had it where they’re wrong. Even people leave a bad grammatical review, and they’re actually incorrect. And I’ve also had where after 10,000 readers, someone found a mistake. I was like, wow, there’s still 1 in there. So it’s a really good tool to actually make the book better and to specifically stop The most dangerous type of review, which is, oh, this person wrote the this book was obviously written in Russian and then translated by Google Translate, like or this book was written by someone who denied editing. Those are brutal

 

Jennie Wright [00:18:37]:

reviews. They’re brutal. Yeah.

 

Jonathan Green [00:18:38]:

Because they attack a part of the book that We’ll stop people from reading it right out the and it works. I mean, if I see that in a review, it also stops me. So that’s really important. I saw that in someone else’s book, and I go this Genius. The second thing you wanna have is a ask for the review. And I you I’ve seen One version of this in fiction, which is really, really cool, and this is where I learned it from. If you’ve ever seen the movie, the never ending Story. I read the never ending story.

 

Jonathan Green [00:19:07]:

Hopefully, I’m not spoiling the movie. It’s from 40 years ago.

 

Jennie Wright [00:19:09]:

But Literally, I have the book behind me, the never ending story.

 

Jonathan Green [00:19:13]:

The beauty of the never ending story is that if you don’t read the book, then nothing comes and kills everyone. Yeah. So a book is only alive as long as people are reading it. Right? It’s like the modern version of Elf, a tree falls and sources. Once no one hears it, it doesn’t make a sound. If a book exists, then no one reads it. So it’s really good. And she’s like, say my name, Bastian.

 

Jonathan Green [00:19:33]:

Great movie. Great story. Right? And that’s they had this story about all these 2 characters that were, like, in a com almost like a comic book, which they’re, like, being erased. And they’re like, oh, if you don’t leave a review, we’re gonna get nothing. So they he wrote it really well. I can’t I wish I can remember which author it was. It was just in a book. I saw that, and I thought that was brilliant.

 

Jonathan Green [00:19:54]:

You actually create a story where, again, it’s breaking the 4th wall, and the character’s like, listen. If you want a sequel, if you want another book in this series, you matter. And that will compel people for nonfiction, I say, listen. I’m an independent author. I’m not with a big publishing house. Your review is significant because the way it works is it’s how many reviews I have recently, and it makes a difference. So your review can actually help me to stay in business, help me to write more books and sell more books because I need that revenue to have the time to write the next book. So you tell me about that.

 

Jennie Wright [00:20:32]:

In the book, though? Are you putting it in the front of the book, the back of the book?

 

Jonathan Green [00:20:35]:

Last so those are the last

 

Jennie Wright [00:20:36]:

2 pages. Okay.

 

Jonathan Green [00:20:38]:

The last goes goes, typo page. I think it was typo. It goes okay. The end of the book, it goes Free gift, whatever my free gift is, like, one last chance at the free gift. Then it goes other books by Jonathan, Ivo. Those 2 might switch back and forth and then Ask for the review. The last thing they see is ask for the review because when people are reading on a Kindle device, what happens is it then shows that option to leave the review right there, And you at least wanted to click the rating. If they’ll leave a review, if they just hit the 5 star thing, it makes a difference.

 

Jonathan Green [00:21:07]:

So Totally. Just go, hey. On the next page, if you’re re you’re gonna see this thing. And if you’re reading a paperback, here’s a link to go to the page where you can leave a review. Just pull out your phone right now, and it makes a huge difference. I want that to be the last thing I Say to them because that’s the action I want them to take right then. Significant action.

 

Jennie Wright [00:21:24]:

Absolutely. Somebody a friend of mine just published a book, and it’s self published. She put in QR codes into the book. Did she use those to like, the QR code leads right to, you know, the A review page or whatnot, and then the other QR code was, like, to her freebie and things like that. And so she used those. She even put them, like she had, like, a little break. She broke the 4th wall right in the middle of the book. She’s like, hey.

 

Jennie Wright [00:21:47]:

If you’re having a good time with this, why not, you know, preemptively, just So you know you can get this free be like, this free gift and if you do this, blah blah blah. So it was really cool. I think, QR codes are fun. A Fun thing and they’re so easy to make now. They used to be hard. You used to have to go to, like, a certain page and sign up for a service, and now you can just do them in Canva. So much easier. Okay.

 

Jennie Wright [00:22:08]:

So we’ve talked about reviews. We’ve talked about this online event, which I think is really, really cool. And you’ve had this, you’ve had this incredible journey of writing So many books, obsessively writing books, which is kind of you know, every author is, like, thinking, wow. How did he get to 300? But you were cranking out a book every, you know, week or so at one point, which is, crazy. You don’t do that anymore. Now you’re a lot more selective, And you have a completely different clientele, which is cool. What would be your insights or your process for ghostwriting, and collaborating with other authors to kinda, like, get this process done.

 

Jonathan Green [00:22:46]:

So I don’t I’ve only done a few co writes with other authors. Yeah. And you always have to have you’re an I don’t do 5050 co writes. It never works that way when there’s 2 captains of the boat. So one of you always has to be The dominant person. Sometimes it’s me. Sometimes it’s the other person. Just usually, it’s like who has the bigger audience.

 

Jonathan Green [00:23:06]:

That’s the person who’s dominant. So I have this ability to the other person is just, like, let them make the decisions and, like, not get emotionally invested because you have to. You have to be able to Disconnect your emotion from the book when it’s not your own book, whether it’s a cowriter or ghostwriting job. So the most important thing is the ability to find the interesting. So the reason I’m a really good ghostwriter is not my writing. I’m not a very good writer. I’m okay. There are writers who are more eloquent.

 

Jonathan Green [00:23:40]:

They’d have better metaphor. They tell these better stories. They have this just brilliant ability to write. That’s not me. That’s not where I shine. I’m really, in like, consistency and quantity type person. So I write pretty good books, and I write a lot of them. And they have good information that works.

 

Jonathan Green [00:23:57]:

Like, the instructions work. But a lot of people have no self awareness about if they’re being boring. Like, we’ve all every one of us has had someone in our lives tell us about one of their dreams. And there is nothing more boring than another person’s dream. Just always.

 

Jennie Wright [00:24:21]:

Okay. You’re calling me out. I’m always talking about my dreams. Therefore, I must be boring.

 

Jonathan Green [00:24:26]:

Yeah. And, I mean, not your hopes and dreams about the future, but I mean, if you had a dream last night and you’re telling someone Yeah. Now you know. Because you’re telling us something about that’s not real at all. So it’s like

 

Jennie Wright [00:24:35]:

Totally.

 

Jonathan Green [00:24:36]:

Really disconnected. Sorry. But it’s just No.

 

Jennie Wright [00:24:38]:

It’s cool. It’s funny. I just have very vivid dreams, and I end up my partner about them. Like, I had this crazy dream last night, and, yeah, they’ll yeah. I make the connection now. Okay. I’m sorry. I probably won’t do that again.

 

Jonathan Green [00:24:48]:

Well, That’s what I mean. It’s so we don’t I I found out the same way when someone said it to me at one point. I go, oh my gosh. Now I get it because so I have a really short attention span, so I’ll be. I interview someone, and if it’s boring, I change the subject. I’m like, stop. It’s boring. I don’t say that, but sometimes I want to.

 

Jonathan Green [00:25:06]:

I’m always trying to drive them Towards the interesting. So I have this ability that comes from my dating life, which is to find the interesting. So when I was Single guy. Right? And you’re going out and you meet a lady in a bar or whatever, and then her husband walks up. The standard thing to do is to slink away and be like, oh and it’s like, well, I haven’t done anything wrong because I didn’t know you were married. Right? I was just talking to someone. She was in the bathroom. So I have this I developed this ability where usually me and the husband will end up having a bunch together, neither of us are talking to her because me and him become best friends.

 

Jonathan Green [00:25:35]:

What I do is I collect jobs. I wanna meet 1 person who’s had every job. So I always say, what do you do? And if it’s something new, especially I get really excited. And most people don’t think their job is interesting because it’s so consistent for them, but there’s all these small parts that are very Same to me because it’s a world I don’t know. Like, the person who does the flashlights for a plane on the runway, he goes, it’s not that important. I go, really? What if you do this when you’re supposed to do that? And he’s like, oh, 2 planes crash and $50,000,000 of damages done. I was like, you have a lot of power with 2 flashlights. Those people have so much power, and That’s very like, I met that was one that was most interesting.

 

Jonathan Green [00:26:15]:

I met someone who was, in charge of when you’re having surgery, they hand the tool to the nurse who hands it to the surgeon, And I was like, you have to learn all the names for every single tool. He was in charge of cleaning and counting. Counting is really important. How many tools do we use? How many tools came back? Because for a while, they weren’t counting, and stuff was getting left behind in people. So Yep. Really A job that I would find very stressful, and this person, like, I I think he hadn’t even graduated high school. Right? So he didn’t have high education. I was, like, yeah, but, like, The nervousness.

 

Jonathan Green [00:26:49]:

Right? Having nerves of so I’m very interested in that. So if I’m interested in something, I’ll ask a lot of questions even when the person doesn’t think they’re interesting. So I’m chasing that interesting. So when I’m talking to a client, I’m looking for the interesting. And when things are boring, I don’t Put it in the book. I’m just like, look. We can’t put this in. This is boring.

 

Jonathan Green [00:27:06]:

And that’s really important because a lot of people wanna write a biography, And nobody reads biographies unless you’re already famous. I’ve read 1 biography in the last 10 years. K? It just they’re People buy even when people buy celebrity biographies, they tend not I think they’re the lowest rate of finished books of any book out there. They have really low finish rate. People buy them, but only because they’re already interested. So if you’re already famous, fine. It’s a way to monetize your celebrity a little bit, but so I help people to Drive towards the interesting. And the second thing is that people will say to me, and I’m sure you’ve known this.

 

Jonathan Green [00:27:42]:

They go, listen. I don’t know if this is interesting, but and they go, I think this is probably boring. No one would Carebot. And then they start the craziest story you’ve ever heard. So one of them was, this guy says to me he’s in his eighties. He goes, listen. So during the Vietnam War, I was actually a spy in Cambodia illegally. And then he goes, and after I came back, I, my wife was a spy in the Russian ballet, and we were in Moscow for 10 years undercover.

 

Jonathan Green [00:28:10]:

He goes, do you think people would find that interesting? And I was like, I’m sorry. Have you ever heard of movies? Like, have you heard of like, I was like, you’re literally describing the most interesting thing that anyone’s ever said to me. Another one, Someone said, I don’t know if this is interesting, but I I’m driving I drive big rigs. I’m driving a truck, an 18 wheeler, and a jackknifes On a rainy day, and it’s going sideways towards a gas station. I look at the gas station, and I see, like, a family in the station wagon, and And I was shooting towards the gas station. Is that interesting? And I was like, what is happening here? Like, it was part of an action movie. Right? And so, Obviously, the guy didn’t die because he’s telling me the story, but I’m already I wonder what happens. Another person says, I’m going up to parachute with a group of people.

 

Jonathan Green [00:28:52]:

We’re halfway up, and the engine’s cut out. We’re too low to be able to jump out. We don’t have enough altitude to jump out. The parachutes won’t work at this low out altitude, and door won’t open. And then she was like, is that interesting? And I was like, what it so people who say that, oh, I don’t they think they’re boring. They have the most interesting Stories that people think they’re interesting have the most boring stories almost always. So I help separate those 2 things. The second really critical part Of especially nonfiction ghostwriting is to understand the reader.

 

Jonathan Green [00:29:24]:

Most people think the purpose of a book is to demonstrate your deep and abiding knowledge and expertise on a subject. And that’s not the purpose of a book. People hate smart people. People do not like you if you’re too intelligent, and people don’t follow experts. And the example of this I always say Doesn’t matter which political party you’re on. I don’t care. Let’s say you’re watching Fox News and an expert comes on and tells this story, then the expert is on MSNBC. Are you gonna switch and follow the expert? Are you gonna stay on Fox News and see the next guest? And vice versa.

 

Jonathan Green [00:29:58]:

Right? Or whatever news channels you watch. I don’t know all the names of them. So I I don’t have TV here, so I don’t know those channels. But whatever channel you’re watching, they don’t follow the expert. Right? So they don’t jump and follow the expert from interview Interview, they follow the interviewer. Why do you follow the interviewer? Because you like them. Nobody thinks reporters are smart. Nobody thinks I mean, I hope.

 

Jonathan Green [00:30:18]:

Nobody thinks TV reporters are Smart. Because they’re just teleprompter readers these days. Right? They’re not going undercover and bringing in a story like people did 50 years ago, but it’s just like, oh, I’m reading a teleprompter, and I have really great hair, And I’m likable. That’s their job. Right? Just to be likable, not to be smart, which is fine. So the purpose of your book is to do 2 things. It’s to demonstrate that you’re likable, And the second thing is to show that you’re not an idiot. You don’t have to be a genius.

 

Jonathan Green [00:30:43]:

You just have to be not idiot. So the bar isn’t here for intelligence. It’s here. Once you’re a grown, Well, a lot of people are idiots. A lot of peep and once you realize that, it moves because people focus on All of the stuff. And what they do is they turn their book into a Thanksgiving dinner because they put in all of their knowledge. Someone reads the book and goes, okay. I know everything Jenny knows.

 

Jonathan Green [00:31:04]:

I never need to Read anything by her. Why would it go on her mailing list? I know the extent of her knowledge. Everything is in the book. When everything when people feel that sense of fullness, that end of a Thanksgiving meal fullness and get Sleepy, then you lose them. You actually get a worse effect. Mhmm. So want to leave people wanting more. So you want them to feel A sense that, okay, you’ve hit a waypoint, but that there’s still more.

 

Jonathan Green [00:31:26]:

And a great example the best example of this is that TV show 24. 24 episodes in a row, I know 3 things are gonna happen. Someone’s gonna get betrayed. Someone’s gonna die. Someone’s gonna get tortured, and it’s gonna turn out there’s A secret person behind whoever we thought was the bad guy. And they will do 24 cliffhangers in a row. Right? Mhmm. Oh, it’s It’s person a.

 

Jonathan Green [00:31:47]:

At the end of episode 1, you guys, oh my gosh. Person a is actually being puppet. There’s a puppet master. That’s in episode 2. You find the puppet master. There’s another puppet master, And there’s 24 puppet masters in a row, which shouldn’t work, but it’s the best example of someone they kept doing the same cliffhanger So the best example of Daisy Chenney cliffhangers, that show was so successful for that reason. Mhmm. That every week, you’re like, I gotta find out what who’s behind this, And they just kept building it out.

 

Jonathan Green [00:32:13]:

Right? And it would always have these elements that are, like, so over the top, but it’s just you’re so engaged because of that. So that’s the cliffhanger, which is, Okay. They caught a person. They still caught person a, so you have a sense of completion, but now I wanna go to the next course. So when you’re writing your book, You don’t wanna put everything you know. You wanna put enough in to know they felt they got value, but then they also wanna feel that there’s more. That’s kind of the balance that some a lot of people first time writers struggle that I’m able to find for them. Now the likability element is also the tricky part because people think their most interesting story is their best story.

 

Jonathan Green [00:32:51]:

And, I learned this lesson the hard way About myself. So I took a course on how to tell interesting stories when you meet a lady. How to be interesting. Okay? It was, like, how to tell an interesting story, And here’s the story I used to tell. And tell me if this would work on you as late. I was like, listen. I was climbing a mountain in Japan. I got lost.

 

Jonathan Green [00:33:11]:

The sun set. I’m all by myself on a mountain. I think I’m gonna die. I fall off a cliff, and I get a scratch Under my shirt, I’m afraid to look because I think my nipple’s gone. So I’m I know I can’t look because I’ll break down. Okay. I’m so thirsty. I’m starting to think about, okay, I’m gonna have to pee in the canteen.

 

Jennie Wright [00:33:29]:

Mhmm.

 

Jonathan Green [00:33:30]:

And right before I have to do that, I get off the mountain and I survive, but I thought I was gonna die. A really emotional story. I actually was thinking about my will. I’m never gonna start my family again. A 100% thought I was gonna die. Every Single woman, when she hears that story, all they hear is, this guy almost drank his own pee. I’m not kissing him. That’s all they they come away with.

 

Jonathan Green [00:33:50]:

Right? So it’s Right. That’s the thing. It’s an engaging story, but it’s the wrong story.

 

Jennie Wright [00:33:55]:

Yeah.

 

Jonathan Green [00:33:56]:

So it’s interesting, but it’s not Interesting if you’re thinking about kissing that person because you start thinking that one thing. Okay? And that’s the lesson I learned because I was like, oh, interesting doesn’t mean it’s Gets the result you want.

 

Jennie Wright [00:34:09]:

Especially depending on your ideal audience. Yeah.

 

Jonathan Green [00:34:12]:

So that story is a great story in certain situations, but it’s not. No one after hearing that goes thinks anything paused. They go, oh, bad. He is you know? I didn’t even do it, but they still think about it. Right? And they go, it’s probably lying. Maybe you didn’t really do it. But that’s all of that goes through your head. That’s not the thought you want someone to have when you’re trying to be flirtatious.

 

Jonathan Green [00:34:29]:

So that’s how I learned that lesson. But a lot of people will tell me stories that are, they’re the villain. 1 client I work with, his story was, like, he left his fiance at the altar, and he’s like, you have to put that In the book, I was like, if I do that, you’re Darth Vader. You have to be the villain of the book. And It’s a lot of people are very unlikable because they’ve grown up with advantages. So but if you’re self aware, you can turn that around by being a positive person kind of facing it. So what people wanna know is that you know how they feel. And some of my clients are very successful, And I have to find that story that humanizes them.

 

Jonathan Green [00:35:12]:

That’s what I’m the

 

Jennie Wright [00:35:13]:

the actual the other story. You told us the 1 story on the mountain, then you said, okay. Let me Tell you I’m gonna tell you 2 stories and which one’s more interesting. What’s the other one that you actually told from learning how to tell stories for dating? What was the other story?

 

Jonathan Green [00:35:26]:

Oh, the story okay. Yeah.

 

Jennie Wright [00:35:28]:

You got it.

 

Jonathan Green [00:35:28]:

So And,

 

Jennie Wright [00:35:29]:

I mean, you left me with a cliffhanger. I need

 

Jonathan Green [00:35:30]:

to know the other one. Yeah. Sure. So The other story that I tell, it’s actually became the the story that I tell in my book fire boss, which is, you know, when I was, younger, I was not a good athlete. I was always the Chubby loser. But at my school, you had to do a sport. It was mandatory. It wasn’t optional.

 

Jonathan Green [00:35:49]:

So I was on the soccer team. I was the 3rd string Goalie for the soccer team. And, my dad was major athlete. My dad was almost a professional baseball player. Like, he got offered a contract to play professional baseball. He was, like, good enough, and so he was that close. Really successful. And I was like, guess it skips a generation.

 

Jonathan Green [00:36:06]:

Right? And, He, like, he had played against someone at a college game who was in the hall of fame now for baseball. So my dad had played against great players, And I got really close in all those adventures. So I’m oh my gosh. I’m not an athlete. My dad came to all my games even though one of those dads is working all the time. He still found a way to every game and even coached me when I was younger. So we’re at this game, and it’s a JV game, so the I’m only 2nd string goalie. But I’m always just sitting on the bench.

 

Jonathan Green [00:36:32]:

Everyone knows I’m not gonna get to play because he the other the guy the goal is one of those guys that can run. He’s always doing stuff. So he’s on, like, 3 sports teams. He’s, like, winning the miles of stuff, and he breaks his arm. And I go Oh, boy. I’m in the mighty ducks. I’m in the mighty ducks. This just happened.

 

Jennie Wright [00:36:48]:

Yep.

 

Jonathan Green [00:36:49]:

My dad warms me up. It’s freezing cold. My dad warms me up, and we I save the game. K. We win the game. I make a big I make the big save. It’s like one of those moments. You’re like, you don’t think it’s really gonna debut.

 

Jonathan Green [00:36:59]:

It happens. So all my dreams came true. Right? I had got the game. My dad was there. I saved the game. We won the game. It was crazy. And then, you know, he’s out for the season.

 

Jonathan Green [00:37:12]:

Mhmm. So now I’m so what happened to the goalies? My coach well, Here’s the twist. My coach takes this other guy, Doug, who’s taller than me and goes, Doug, you’re a goalie now. You’re gonna learn how to be a goalie because Doug is taller than me, blond hair, blue eyes and the coach. Each game, we’ll put Doug in longer and longer. And every time Doug is in, we lose. Doug is terrible. So we played 1 game where I’ve Doug plays the first half.

 

Jonathan Green [00:37:38]:

The other team scores 4 goals. I Goalie, the second half, they score 1. So I’m 4 times every single time we play, and then we the coach, however, Well, keeps giving Doug more time and we less. And finally, we play a game. We get to the point where we’ll always have 2 people stand in the goal next to him, trying to head out all the balls because they know Doug is terrible. But the coach just gives him more and more time. It doesn’t the coach just doesn’t like me. And we get to the final game of the season against our big rivals.

 

Jonathan Green [00:38:05]:

It’s the middle of the game. I I get this Doug gets first half. He a ton of goals. We can’t score any goals because everyone’s playing defense to make up for him, and the coach just doesn’t care because he likes this guy. I don’t know if he likes him because he’s taller than me. Yeah. He’s taller, but maybe also he likes He’s got blond hair and blue eyes. I don’t know.

 

Jonathan Green [00:38:21]:

So I’m going in to get in, and the coach says, actually, Doug’s gonna play the 2nd. We’re already losing, the way, so Doug’s already let in, like, 2 goals. We’re losing. And I said, we there’s and then I said some things I’d never talked to an adult like this before. I said some really dark stuff to this guy. I said, that’s the reason you’re the JV coach at your age. I was like, you’re in your sixties. They won’t even let you coach varsity because you make terrible decisions.

 

Jonathan Green [00:38:40]:

I said, we will never win this game if you don’t let me Playing the goal. And then I’d said a whole bunch of curse words. I don’t remember exactly what I said. I can’t say them on your podcast. And I’ve never I’ve never talked to an adult like that before. And I turned around, and my dad is right there. And I’m like, oh, no. Right? I’m about to suffer the consequences as

 

Jennie Wright [00:38:59]:

you say. Suffer the consequences for your actions.

 

Jonathan Green [00:39:02]:

And my dad goes, you’re right. You’re right. And it, like, blew my mind that I didn’t get in trouble. He goes, yeah. You know, and it’s like, we of course, we lost the game by a lot. And, like, once he stopped letting me be the goalie for the whole game, we never won a game again. Once they just So it was, like, the big the story is the story about me and my dad.

 

Jennie Wright [00:39:23]:

Yeah. It’s all about the dad and the yeah.

 

Jonathan Green [00:39:26]:

And I tell a shortened I told you a longer version, but a shortened version of that. And because the reason it’s a good story is because it’s I actually feel emotions about it. I really feel Mhmm. Probably, like, It’s the most significant part of my high school experience is these 2 games, whereas, like, I got to be the hero, and then I got to curse out an adult and have a first connection with my dad. Yeah. There’s 2 big moments. So I telling those stories resonates in a different way. So when I’m working with a client, I’m waiting for the story that makes the likable because when someone you know how, like, nobody wants to learn about weight loss for the person who’s always been skinny? It’s like you don’t know what it’s like.

 

Jonathan Green [00:40:04]:

Nobody wants to learn about wealth. So I worked on this project where all these people We’re in real estate, and every single one of them had inherited money. K. I was like, oh, the story of this book is you need parents in real estate. That was really the story. The client I was working with, and the client was, like, a bad client. Because he wouldn’t, like, he wouldn’t do a lot of my process. He wouldn’t do the interviews.

 

Jonathan Green [00:40:24]:

He would just, like, send me emails. He, like, say, oh, just use content from Wikipedia for this. And I was like, you interview these people and stuff. And He had a bunch of badgers. But one of the people, the his father gave him $500,000,000 to start a business. And the guy said, A lot of people think my dad gave me all the money to start my 1st business, my 1st job. He was actually it was my 2nd job. And I thought that was so funny because it’s such a self aware.

 

Jonathan Green [00:40:52]:

It’s like, no. I worked for one of my friends in college first. Right? And I thought At least they’re because how else can at least they’re aware of it, and they’re kinda being like, listen. I know that this is an insane thing and have an awareness of it. And it’s very funny to say it’s actually the second, You know, the 2nd job?

 

Jennie Wright [00:41:07]:

The 2nd job. Yeah. No doubt.

 

Jonathan Green [00:41:08]:

I was like, I thought that was very impressive. And Brista came up with another story as I work with someone who Huge. He never has to work again. He’s just made 1,000,000 and 1,000,000 and 1,000,000 of dollars, and it’s very he’s not likable because he’s, a little bit I don’t know. They use all these words now about Spectrum and stuff. He’s just someone who’s a little bit abrasive, but not intentionally. Right? He’s just very, analytical and not emotional in the way he talks. He’s very he’s very, very good at sales.

 

Jonathan Green [00:41:36]:

So everything he says is very well structured and very strategic. And I was interviewing him, and, like, it took a long time. We got to this story about He fell out of a tree when he was a kid. His hand was, like, ripped open, and he was freaked out. He’s like, my hand’s never gonna work again. I’ve never had pain like this before. And his parents are like, are we gonna do? We can’t afford to go to the doctor. And so they took him to a vet in another town to, like, solve his hand.

 

Jonathan Green [00:42:00]:

And he’s like, I never want That for my kids. And I goes, that’s why you chase money. I was like, this is the story. When I heard when you told that story, I was like, I’m so good. I felt like in the in the groove, you know, when you feel like you’re in the zone. So I’m always trying to find everyone has one of those stories. Everyone has the story of where they’re the underdog. You can watch, Like America’s Got Talent or American Idol, all these talent shows, it’s 12 underdogs.

 

Jonathan Green [00:42:24]:

They’ve figured out how to make everyone into an underdog and how to kind of Tell everyone’s version of the story because everyone has had something bad happen to them. So what I always say that kind of story.

 

Jennie Wright [00:42:35]:

Everybody wants that kind of story. They wanna see somebody go from Nothing or less than nothing to something.

 

Jonathan Green [00:42:42]:

Yeah. Nobody wants to see you go from rich to richer. Right? So they want you expect the more successful you are, the more you have Something to overcome it. So I always ask people this question. I say, what’s the worst thing that’s ever happened to you that I’m allowed to put in the book? And people Will and I the second half is really important, because some otherwise, they’ll just tell me a story, and they go don’t put that in the book. And that’s when people really open up, and and it Doesn’t have to be high stakes. It has to be how it felt. So it can be I was in a meeting, And everyone was looking at me, and I was so ashamed because I didn’t know the answer.

 

Jonathan Green [00:43:18]:

I felt like I needed it. I said, why am I here? Right? That’s High stakes for you. Right? It’s like, oh, I thought my parents were gonna spank me, or I thought you know what I mean? I thought my parents were sending me to military. Well, it can be Not actually life and death. It doesn’t have to be I was in the helicopter about to crash. But as long as it’s high emotion for you, it’ll be high emotion for the reader. And that’s the shortcut to do it, because a lot of people Think I have to only show the success. And that’s how most of your business is.

 

Jonathan Green [00:43:45]:

Most people just wanna see front of house. Right. They don’t wanna know what’s happening backstage. But when you you have to add this element to a book because it’s a long form content That lets people know you had a journey, that you know how they feel. That’s what people want. The reason people like me is they go, Jonathan gets me. So people want that. So it’s It’s hard for people to talk about, because it’s usually like people will tell me about being in a abusive situation.

 

Jonathan Green [00:44:19]:

People will talk about Getting a diagnosis a lot. There’s people everyone has a or a divorce or something like that, which is like your biggest failure. And the thing that’s kind of crazy, but it’s also very liberating is realizing that the worst thing that ever happened to you is when people will fall in love with you As a creator, as an author, so you have to open up. I sometimes talk about this as it’s kind of like, Oh, gosh. Alexander the Great. Like, he was like, oh, he fought at the front of the army. Don’t know if that’s really true, but that’s the story. Right? He led from the front.

 

Jonathan Green [00:44:57]:

People, if you open up first, they’ll open up to you. People have a natural desire to seek rapport. Because what happens okay. Example is this. Is if I tell you there’s someone in my family who’s an addict, your natural response is to tell me about someone you know or in your family that’s an addict. So you will open up as much as I open up. If I talk about being poor or being starving or almost dying. The more I reveal, the more you feel safe revealing.

 

Jonathan Green [00:45:26]:

Right? It’s this kind of like a game of the taunt. And, again, this is something I learned from dating as well. I was like, oh, if I tell a really personal story first, then she’ll feel comfortable opening up at the same level. I can’t just say, oh, tell me something really personal about you, and then I I go and then I just wait. People don’t like that. So I learned that And I said, oh, that makes sense to me. So just for a lot of studying communication. So in the same way, if you reveal something in a book, then people feel comfortable revealing it back to you.

 

Jonathan Green [00:45:54]:

So those things are kind of why that matters is they go, oh, because I want to follow someone or connect with someone who knows how I feel. I don’t wanna it doesn’t I can’t connect with someone who’s just always had success, and they don’t know what it’s like to struggle. People want because everyone struggles In some area of their lives. Right? That’s really the beauty of the thing. People think that nonfiction is supposed to be dry And just information on instruction, it’s not. It’s supposed to be fiction that happened. That’s the only difference. So you have some teaching, but it’s wrapped in In these different stories.

 

Jonathan Green [00:46:29]:

Right. So when you wanna write a biography, it’s like you can use stories for your life as long as they are leading towards a point for each chapter. Like, the story has to be there For a reason, not just because you think it’s interesting. And when you do that, that’s when you can create a story that pulls people and they read the entire book. And at the end of the book, They feel like they know you well enough to want to read your next book or to give you their email address or to Go visit your social media or to learn more about you. Any of those things that comes from being vulnerable Mhmm. In the book.

 

Jennie Wright [00:47:02]:

That’s amazing. We could keep talking about this. Unfortunately, I actually do have a time limit on this podcast, so I’m gonna have to wrap it up. But I appreciate all the stories that you’ve told. There’s been a lot of more context than even I anticipated us talking about, which is really great. I, you know, I talk about list building and lead generation and launches. We got into some particulars, and I think that we can pull some of this into The different elements of either if you wanna write a book or even if you’re writing really good long form content stories are great. I think a lot of people struggle with that, so you’ve Shared a lot of great stuff.

 

Jennie Wright [00:47:36]:

Thank you so much, Jonathan. I really appreciate it.

 

Jonathan Green [00:47:39]:

Well, thank you so much for having me.

 

Jennie Wright [00:47:41]:

Absolutely. And how can people find you, get in Touch with you. We’re gonna have everything in the show notes, but go ahead and share.

 

Jonathan Green [00:47:47]:

Sure. The best place to find me is just serve no master. If you Google it or you go to serve master.com, every result is Me. So the first 100 results are all me or my social media or my podcast. That’s ways you can find me. And if you visit my website, I have Some amazing free gifts to help you get started, kind of secrets of being a best seller. I’m always giving away some of my cool new AI tools that I’m using to grow my business. So please come have a visit and hang out for a while.

 

Jennie Wright [00:48:11]:

It’s a cool looking website. I’ve been there a couple times. Thank you so much, Jonathan. And we’re gonna make sure that all of that is in the show notes so you can get that everywhere that you’re listening to the podcast. And thank you so much again. And as always, the Acquire podcast is edited and produced by Jason Wheeler. And if you found this, Today’s episode to be valuable, please make sure you do subscribe. Leave a review.

 

Jennie Wright [00:48:32]:

Let me know what you think. I’d love to get your feedback. And I always appreciate you being part of my growing community, so consider joining my Facebook group where I’m excited to deliver Lots of great content, content that empowers entrepreneurs and marketers with list building, lead generation, and launches. Thank you so much. And the Acquire podcast is brought to you by the Odd Phonic Podcast Network.